Dear Mr. Nack,
First off I would like to apologize for not keeping up with replying to you. The past several weeks have been exhausting for me; however, that is a poor excuse not to reply.
I love your introduction to your post. That verse from 1 Corinthians is one that is true of myself. Your argument is well taken. As with much of theology, it is wrong for one to become too dogmatic regarding their beliefs. That is not to say that we should hold on to our beliefs loosely, as they could be wrong in some regard. I consider myself a Calvinist, but not to the point where it would be an unhealthy belief. Obviously, we are children of Christ and followers of God. Let’s make sure that that is the center of our thought process, not Calvinism. Does that make sense?
I feel like you may have misinterpreted my position on predestination. I believe that God sovereignty and justly choose those who will be saved. However, I do not believe that we have our ever move dictated to us by God. Any sense of “free will” (however you define it) is under God’s sovereign control. How could there be anything in existence that is outside of God?
I found your argument compelling, but it did not persuade me (it would be boring if we agreed on everything right? What would we write about?). Your argument seemed to be too heavy on the philosophy and reason and less on theology (I could be wrong though…obviously). Sometime I would like to have the time to be able to pick apart each of the passages both of us used in presenting our side of thinking. Maybe some other time, eh?
As for now, I would like to take apart Romans 8:29 a bit. The following breakdown is borrow from John Piper (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1985/512_Those_Whom_He_Foreknew_He_Predestined/):
1. The connection with verse 28.
“FOR whom he foreknew…”
2. The meaning of God’s foreknowledge.
“For whom he FOREKNEW, he also predestined…”
3. The aim of predestination for our good.
“…to become conformed to the image of his Son…”
4. The aim of predestination for Christ’s glory.
“…that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”
…I encourage you to read the rest of the outline to his message. Perhaps the area of predestination is something that we’ll have to agree to disagree on. To be honest, I haven’t thought much about predestination as of late. I’ve been studying the purpose of prayer again…to which I am thoroughly confused.
If you don’t mind, could we change gears to discuss prayer a bit? I know I’ve already talked to you a bit about it in person and the likes, but I am still confused as to the purpose (speaking mainly of petitionary prayer). I believe that to a degree, predestination and prayer are connected. However, I don't know where that degree is. I found this “conversation” once and find it fascinating; I want to know what you think about it:
Prayerless: I understand that you believe in the providence of God. Is that right?
Prayerful: Yes.
Prayerless: Does that mean you believe, like the Heidelberg Catechism says, that nothing comes about by chance but only by God's design and plan?
Prayerful: Yes, I believe that's what the Bible teaches.
Prayerless: Then why do you pray?
Prayerful: I don't see the problem. Why shouldn't we pray?
Prayerless: Well, if God ordains and controls everything, then what he plans from of old will come to pass, right?
Prayerful: Yes.
Prayerless: So it's going to come to pass whether you pray or not, right.
Prayerful: That depends on whether God ordained for it to come to pass in answer to prayer. If God predestined that something happen in answer to prayer, it won't happen without prayer.
Prayerless: Wait a minute, this is confusing. Are you saying that every answer to prayer is predestined or not?
Prayerful: Yes, it is. It's predestined as an answer to prayer.
Prayerless: So if the prayer doesn't happen, the answer doesn't happen?
Prayerful: That's right.
Prayerless: So the event is contingent on our praying for it to happen?
Prayerful: Yes. I take it that by contingent you mean prayer is a real reason that the event happens, and without the prayer the event would not happen.
Prayerless: Yes that's what I mean. But how can an event be contingent on my prayer and still be eternally fixed and predestined by God?
Prayerful: Because your prayer is as fixed as the predestined answer.
Prayerless: Explain.
Prayerful: It's not complicated. God providentially ordains all events. God never ordains an event without a cause. The cause is also an event. Therefore, the cause is also foreordained. So you cannot say that the event will happen if the cause doesn't because God has ordained otherwise. The event will happen if the cause happens.
Prayerless: So what you are saying is that answers to prayer are always ordained as effects of prayer which is one of the causes, and that God predestined the answer only as an effect of the cause.
Prayerful: That's right. And since both the cause and the effect are ordained together you can't say that the effect will happen even if the cause doesn't because God doesn't ordain effects without causes.
Prayerless: Can you give some illustrations?
Prayerful: Sure. If God predestines that I die of a bullet wound, then I will not die if no bullet is fired. If God predestines that I be healed by surgery, then if there is no surgery, I will not be healed. If God predestines heat to fill my home by fire in the furnace, then if there is no fire, there will be no heat. Would you say, "Since God predestines that the sun be bright, it will be bright whether there is fire in the sun or not"?
Prayerless: No.
Prayerful: I agree. Why not?
Prayerless: Because the brightness of the sun comes from the fire.
Prayerful: Right. That's the way I think about the answers to prayer. They are the brightness, and prayer is the fire. God has established the universe so that in larger measure it runs by prayer, the same way he has established brightness so that in larger measure it happens by fire. Doesn't that make sense?
Prayerless: I think it does.
Prayerful: Then let's stop thinking up problems and go with what the Scriptures say. Ask and you will receive. You have not because you ask not.
Let me ask you, what is the purpose of prayer? I’m sure things are popping to mind about how we pray to give thanks to God and to offer Him praise. I wholeheartedly agree with that; however, my confusion comes in the area of petitionary prayer. This type of prayer is in which I request something from God. Don’t get me wrong, I pray (although not enough) and ask that God give me things or that God will give me safety, or that God will bless a friend or something.
My question is this: what is the point of praying if God already has a plan in mind for us? Why interject our own desires into prayers of petitions if we are expected to pray for His will to be done? If I pray for something so earnestly all my life and it is not what God has in mind for me, then I have wasted thousands of prayers in vain. What I desire may or may not be what God has in mind for me; I have no way of knowing. So I ask, why bother?
I’ll offer 3 possible thought processes:
1. We pray and then we ask and receive (Luke 11:10) or we do not ask and do not receive. I do not contest that the purpose of prayer is to use God as our servant boy to do whatever we ask. It says that He only hear the prayers of the upright and those earnestly seeking Him (Philippians 4:6-7; Matthew 6:5-8; 2 Chronicles 7:14)
2. If God will do His will, than the purpose is lacking for us ask. If he will accomplish His will in his own time and way, why would we ask Him to do something our way? Or do we ask and due to us asking, He changes His mind? If He changes His mind, does He really know the future? Or does He base His decisions on our requests or lack of requests? What makes us think that we know better than God in some area to ask the Creator of the world to change his plans for us?
3. C.S. Lewis once stated that he prayers not to change God, but to change himself. This is the view I hold to. We know that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts (Isaiah 55:8), but shouldn’t it be our daily intent of making our thoughts those which God would have us think? We are told to be transformed by the renewal of our minds so that we can test and know what God’s will is (Romans 12:1-2)
Because of Him,
Joe
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